Scala Macros: “Oh God Why?”
Since this is now being read by people I don’t know, let me add this preface. Scala is one of the better things happening in programming. Any complaints come from the fact that I want it to work as more than a playground for innovation in language design and I think there is always a tension between innovation and refinement. Refutations from Martin Odersky, surely one of the world’s more calm and reasonable people, and Havoc Pennington provide a good counter-balance.
I saw this conversation on twitter:
This was my reaction to the Scala macros proposal too. Not because there is anything necessarily bad about macros or the proposal, but just because—is this really the most critical thing? For context Coda Hale works at Yammer, Stu Hood works at Twitter, Ted Nyman works at (Bank) Simple, and I work at LinkedIn. Each of these companies is trying to write stuff in Scala and so we have a high investment in Scala working out as a language that is good for writing production code (not just as a language that tests out new ideas, or that shows solidarity with the functional programming movement, or that acts a signaling mechanism to tell potential applicants you are hipper than the average Java programmer).
I think the Scala folks have done a good job of putting together something that is significantly better than Java as a language. It’s fast, concise, statically type-checked, and inherits a lot of the good operational properties of the JVM. But languages aren’t just, well, languages; and they aren’t even runtime environments for that matter. They are platforms and tool chains and libraries and bodies of documentation, and cultures, and practices. And here Scala does not yet do so well.
My personal experience with Scala came from working on Apache Kafka, which is a distributed messaging system that serves as LinkedIn’s data pipeline. So I have been working in Scala for the last few years. I still think using Scala was a good decision for a hard, stand-alone piece of software like this, and I am glad we did. Scala fixes all kinds of nastiness in the Java language. But it isn’t all roses, Scala has all kinds of gaps everywhere else. You end up with very pretty code, but gobs of practical annoyances in trying to write that code. The strong hope I have is that the Scala folks will focus on fixing these bread and butter issues, and those of us who just want to use programming languages will be left with something that is a better all around developer experience.
Here is a list of basic issues that hurt actual use of Scala for writing programs. These are pretty well known and much griped about elsewhere, but it bears repeating.
- The compiler is slow. C++ slow. Waiting on a compiler is not a good way to spend your day.
- This would be less of an issue except that IDE support is also weak. A lot of the advantages of static typing and rich libraries really surface when you have an IDE to help navigate, auto-complete, and continuously compile, and neither Eclipse nor IntelliJ is quite there yet. Progress has been made on Eclipse over the last few years, much of it recently, but there is a long way to go before it is the kind of tool you can work with seamlessly without the semi-regular pauses and crashes and spurious errors that are just really annoying in the kind of tool you stare at all day long.
- The generated jar files are comically large.
- There does seems to be some interest in release-to-release compatibility but it is somewhat haphazard. Upgrades have been nightmarish for us because transitive dependencies between internal libraries combined with non-compatibility leads to a kind of “stop the company and everyone upgrade” firedrill each time we do it.
- The error messages from the compiler are often deeply cryptic.
- Comprehensible runtime stack traces and profiling is defeated by the many layers of Scala compiler magic.
- There isn’t much in the way of a standard library, which means always relying on Java’s standard libraries. What is there often has some questionable parts (e.g. virtually any attempt to just instantiate a DoubleLinkedList in the shipped version of 2.8.0 seemed to throw an NullPointerException which kind of implies no one tried running it). Java’s standard libraries are pretty awkward to use even in Java and much more awkward when mixed in with all your pretty Scala code.
- The documentation is pretty impenetrable. Unlike Java, type signatures in Scala don’t really explain idiomatic usage to mortals very well. Needless to say, the docs don’t have anything so pedestrian as examples. (Of course I would kill for the kind of user-annotated documentation that MySQL and PHP have).
Note how deeply unfancy these problems are. I think most programming time is taken up by this kind of deeply unfancy problem: renaming things, waiting for compiles, stupid errors, debugging, understanding libraries, etc. This is true whether you are working on the dreariest enterprise workflow thingy or the sexiest mobile social distributed bigdata cloud framework.
When it comes to Scala language development or community, I am barely even a bystander. I don’t follow the mailing list or contribute code, so I’m not really in a position to describe the values or focus of that community. Even this kind of commentary is a bit whiny. But from what I see the focus of Scala development seems to be on innovation. I am sympathetic. Innovation is fun. Scala folks seem to want to do things like macros, or actors, or parallel collections. Unfortunately my experience with Actors left me convinced we should stick with Doug Lea’s code for any production usage. Neither, frankly, is the lack of a parallel collection library the thing holding back Scala adoption by any stretch of the imagination. A parallel collections library is way high up on the Maslow Hierarchy of programming needs, a reasonably complete, well-thought-out, bug-free, Scala-friendly I/O package in the standard library is much closer to “food, clothing, and shelter”.
Back to macros. Does Scala need them? I don’t know, maybe—I’m not knowledgeable enough to say. In most languages, I understand macros to provide two things (1) forced code in-lining and (2) a kind of non-strict semantics or lazy evaluation of arguments. Scala already has the ability to do lazy evaluation of arguments with functions, and the JVM does make some reasonable attempt at on-the-fly code in-lining, so I don’t see the compelling need. But this is not my point. The Scala folks seem super smart, so I assume that Scala will be better off with macros and that surely I will understand why when they have done it. Rather, what I am asking is why this now? Given all the other issues why keep on adding deep, hard language features that must certainly complicate fixing all the dreary unsexy problems we poor Scala users already have?
I understand why no one wants to work on writing documentation or putting together a fast rigorously regression tested standard library. Those things are boring. It is reasonable that people who are smart enough to work on building a language like Scala don’t want to spent their time on that kind of thing.
My own experience is that you can only push the innovation envelope so far. You can club together maybe two or five or ten audacious new ideas, but at some point if you want to make something valuable you need to stop having new ideas and start fixing the ten thousand little things that prevent people from making use of your bold thoughts.
- rauanm likes this
- sergey-tihon reblogged this from boredandroid
- cseesmic likes this
- bisceglie likes this
- kingryan likes this
- hendyirawan likes this
- wolverian likes this
- crypsys likes this
- machisuji likes this
- semicolons likes this
- joethought reblogged this from boredandroid
- joethought likes this
- meklarian likes this
- adamalix likes this
- ceejbot likes this
- mikiobraun likes this
- tommorrisdotorg reblogged this from boredandroid
- angelogeminiani reblogged this from boredandroid
- angelogeminiani likes this
- theworstpersonintheworld likes this
- swanky-days reblogged this from boredandroid
- boredandroid posted this